Andrologist in Chennai for Male Infertility Treatment

When you ejaculate how much sperm comes out?

Men’s Health Blogs When you ejaculate how much sperm comes out? In this video and post, the question we are going to answer is, when you ejaculate, how many sperms are actually released? More specifically when you ejaculate how much sperm come out? Now many people have a common doubt that when ejaculation happens, are the sperms being properly deposited in the vagina? Understanding the intricacies of this process is crucial, especially for those curious about sperm deposit and conception probabilities. So, let’s delve into the science behind ejaculation and its implications for fertility. How many sperms are going to be deposited in the vagina? To understand this, you must understand the physiology of ejaculation. So when ejaculation happens, the important point to know here is that the first few drops of semen contains the sperm rich fraction. That means the first one or two drops of the semen contain most of the spermatozoa, representing a significant proportion. So that means ejaculation should happen in the vagina strictly and you cannot partially ejaculate outside and then have a partial ejaculation inside. Furthermore, following penetration of your partner or loved one, it’s essential to ensure that you withdraw the organ only after complete ejaculation has occurred Why?? Because during the process of ejaculation, when you have an orgasm, the first one or two drops of the semen contains the sperm rich fraction, SRF. Termed SRF, the sperm-rich fraction essentially indicates that those drops contain the highest number of spermatozoa. And it’s very interesting because when patients collect a sample in a sperm testing laboratory, normally when we see a report, if we notice low semen volume, if we notice a low count,we ask the patient, did the patient spill the first 2-3 drops of the semen on the floor at the time of collecting the sample? As a result, if the answer to the question is yes, we conclude that the report indicates a low semen volume. Given that a significant portion of motile sperm is lost in the spilled drops of semen, the low sperm count report could be inaccurate.. Thus, what’s important to understand here is that the first couple of drops of the semen contains the highest fraction of motile spermatozoa. Dr. Shah Dupesh Consultant Andrologist & Sexologist Ready to improve your Reproductive Health? Discuss your concerns in a private setting and get personalized guidance tailored to your needs. Book a Call Book a Call Some patients also have the question that after I withdraw the organ, I see the semen back flowing. So, when you ejaculate how much sperm comes out? That’s completely fine.  Remember when you ejaculate intra-vaginally, as early as 2-3 minutes after ejaculation, the spermatozoa are going to rapidly swim up and reach the Fallopian tube. What happens after about 10 minutes of ejaculation is that basically the semen is going to liquefy. The liquefaction time is where the coagulated thick semen becomes watery and it becomes thin and watery. So because it becomes liquefied, that is because it loses its viscosity or it becomes liquefied by nature, what’s going to happen? It will flow back down the vaginal canal, and this back flow of semen is termed “effluem-seminis.” That is a physiological process, 99-100% of couples will note that after ejaculation, in 5-7 minutes, semen back flows. The Crucial Initial Phase (Where semen = Gold). When you ejaculate how much sperm comes out? However, the pivotal factor remains the initial phase of ejaculation—specifically, during orgasm. Proper deposition of the first portion of ejaculate into the vagina significantly heightens the chances of pregnancy. The rapid expulsion of the initial 2-3 drops during a man’s orgasm holds particular importance. The depositing these drops in the vagina significantly increases the likelihood of pregnancy. Subscribe to our Newsletter This is more so if the woman is close to her ovulation period or the ovulation window. So I hope you found this video useful and informative and please like, comment and subscribe. Here is  one more bonus point here for you is that when you ejaculate, how many sperms actually comes out? That’s not the right question because in fundamental you need to know what is your sperm concentration per ml. The normal sperm concentration per ml can range anywhere from 13 million per ml to 16 million per ml. I hope this answers the question with some clarity. Please like, comment and subscribe and share this video with all your friends. This is Dr. Shah, consultant andrologist and sexology doctor in chennai I’ll see you back with another video. Bye for now. I hope you enjoyed reading this article on ‘when you ejaculate how much sperm comes out’ References King R, Dempsey M, Valentine KA. Measuring sperm backflow following female orgasm: a new method. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology. 2016 Jan 1;6(1):31927. Doyle JB. The Cervical Spoon: A New Method of Semen Sampling and Assaying Spermigration; a Preliminary Report. The Journal of Urology. 1948 Dec;60(6):986-9. Related Blogs Recent Blogs Having more doubts? Consult with our doctor Consult with Dr. Shah Leave Your Comment Cancel Reply Logged in as Dr Shah Dupesh. Log out? Δ

Dhat Syndrome: Symptoms, Causes & Treatment, Explained by an Andrologist

A weary, low and anxious young Indian man sitting alone on his bed in the early morning, showing the real fatigue and worry of Dhat syndrome

Here’s the honest answer, straight away: Dhat syndrome is a real, recognised medical condition — not a myth, and not “all in your head.” It is a culture-bound syndrome in which deep anxiety about losing semen drives genuine fatigue, weakness, low mood and sexual symptoms. The fear is misplaced, but the suffering is real — and it is very treatable. As a practising andrologist in Chennai, I see this almost every week: a young man, often in his early twenties, convinced that semen lost through masturbation, a nightfall, or a few drops passed in urine is draining his strength, his manhood and his future. Let me explain what is actually happening, because once you understand it, the fear loosens its grip — and the treatment is genuinely good. Talk to Dr Shah Quick Facts Dhat syndrome is real and classified. It sits in the ICD-10 under neurotic/culture-specific disorders, is retained in ICD-11, and is listed in DSM-5 among the cultural concepts of distress (Kar, 2021). The symptoms are genuine — the folk mechanism is not. Semen loss does not physically drain testosterone or destroy fertility — the evidence on that is set out in semen retention benefits; the symptoms are driven by an anxiety–depression and compulsive-behaviour loop (Prakash, 2014). It mainly affects South Asian and East Asian men — India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal and China — typically young, unmarried men aged 16–25 (Udina, 2013). Anxiety and depression travel with it. In a nationwide Indian study, most men with Dhat syndrome had a co-existing depressive or anxiety disorder (Grover, 2015). It is very treatable — reassurance and correcting the semen myth, CBT, treating the anxiety or depression, and breaking the masturbation/porn loop turn it around (Strong, 2022). What is Dhat syndrome? Dhat syndrome — Dhat rog, dhatu loss, “semen-loss anxiety” in plain English — is a clinical condition in which a man becomes preoccupied and distressed about losing semen, and attributes a whole cluster of bodily and sexual symptoms to that loss. The word comes from the Sanskrit dhatu, meaning a vital bodily essence; in classical belief, semen was held to be the most precious of these essences, distilled from blood and food over many days. It was first described in the medical literature decades ago as “a culture-bound sex neurosis of the orient” (Malhotra & Wig, 1991), and it has been studied steadily ever since. So let me say plainly what so few articles do: this is not a made-up complaint and you are not weak for having it. It is a recognised diagnosis with a real symptom picture, a known psychology, and a clear treatment path. I want to be precise about one thing, because the whole site links back to this page for it. The condition is real; the explanation men inherit for it is wrong. Your tiredness, your low mood, your erection trouble — those are real and worth treating. The idea that each drop of semen is physically bleeding away your vitality is the part that is medically untrue. Hold both of those at once and you already understand Dhat syndrome better than most. Is Dhat syndrome real, or a myth? The crucial distinction This is the question I am asked most, and getting it right matters. The honest, evidence-based position is this: the syndrome is real, the distress is real, the diagnosis is real — but the crude folk mechanics are false. Semen is not a finite reservoir of “life force.” Losing it through masturbation, through a nightfall during sleep, or as a few drops passed in urine does not lower your testosterone, shrink your organ, or wreck your fertility. Your body remakes sperm continuously; I explain the daily reality of that in my piece on what happens if you release sperm every day. So the men who tell me their strength is “leaking out” are describing a true experience built on a false premise. Where do the symptoms come from, then? From the anxiety itself. Worry, guilt and hyper-vigilance about semen loss produce very physical effects — fatigue, poor sleep, muscle tension, low mood, and performance anxiety that blocks erections. The semen never harmed you; the fear did. That is not a dismissal — it is the doorway to treatment, because anxiety and depression are things I can actually treat. Worried this is you? Talk to Dr Shah today. Book a Call Dhat syndrome symptoms: the real cluster Men with Dhat syndrome do not complain of one thing — they bring a recognisable cluster, and naming it is itself reassuring. The core complaints I hear, supported by the published reviews (Kar, 2021; Strong, 2022), are: The real symptom cluster of Dhat syndrome — driven by anxiety about semen loss, not by the loss itself. The core symptoms men describe Preoccupation and anxiety about semen loss — through masturbation, nightfall (nocturnal emission), or passing “dhat” in urine. This is the central, defining feature. A pervasive sense of weakness and fatigue — feeling drained, low on energy, “not the man I was.” Lower-back ache — a classic and very common complaint in this group. Self-perceived shrinking of the penis or testes — the conviction that the organ is reducing in size. In my clinic this very often crosses over into small penis syndrome — a perceived shrinkage, not an anatomical one. Erectile dysfunction and premature ejaculation — and in this group the erectile dysfunction is frequently severe, not mild; comorbid sexual dysfunction is a documented, distinctive feature of Dhat syndrome (Rajkumar, 2016; Vivekanandan, 2019). Poor concentration, low motivation, and depressed mood — sometimes deep enough to meet criteria for clinical depression (Mumford, 1996). The symptoms are real and measurable in their impact: the longer Dhat syndrome goes untreated, the more it erodes coping, quality of life and day-to-day function (Ashwin, 2026). That is exactly why I never wave it away — and why catching it early matters. Dhat syndrome: the folk belief vs the medical reality What men fear (the myth) What is

Pus Cells in Semen: Normal Range & When to Worry

A relatable Indian man in early morning light reading his semen analysis and realising his pus cells in semen are within the normal range and usually harmless

Here is the straight answer on the normal range of pus cells in semen: a normal semen report shows up to 1 million peroxidase-positive white cells per millilitre — the WHO 6th-edition cut-off — which usually reads as roughly 1–4 round cells per high-power field (HPF). Most “pus cells” your lab reports are actually harmless round cells, not true infection. As a practising andrologist in Chennai, I get a message like this almost every day: a man photographs the line on his semen report that says “pus cells: 8–10/HPF,” and is convinced his fertility is finished and an infection is eating away inside him. Let me settle your nerves first, then give you the facts. In the large majority of these reports there is no infection and nothing to treat — the lab has simply counted round cells and called them pus. For the smaller number who do have a real problem, the fix is a targeted antibiotic course after a culture, not panic. Book a Consultation Most raised pus-cell counts on a semen report are harmless round cells, not infection. Quick Facts Normal is up to 1×10⁶ peroxidase-positive white cells/mL — the WHO 6th-edition threshold for true leukocytospermia (Dutta & Agarwal, 2025); on most Indian reports that corresponds to about 1–4 round cells per HPF. Not every “pus cell” is a white blood cell. Round cells in semen include both inflammatory cells (true pus) and immature sperm-making cells; you cannot tell them apart by eye, only with a peroxidase stain (Johanisson, 2000). Leukocytes in semen are common, not automatically a disease — found in about 30% of infertile men and up to 20% of fertile men (Henkel, 2024). White cells turn up even in proven-fertile sperm donors and these are linked to normal or improved fertilisation outcomes (Barraud-Lange, 2011). A genuine bacterial infection is the version that bites — it lowers sperm quality and raises sperm DNA fragmentation (Eini, 2021), which is exactly why a semen culture matters before antibiotics. What is the normal range of pus cells in semen? For most men I see, the honest answer is: lower than you fear. The internationally accepted reference is the World Health Organization’s: true leukocytospermia means more than 1 million peroxidase-positive leukocytes per millilitre of semen (Dutta & Agarwal, 2025). On the per-HPF count your Indian lab actually prints, that threshold usually works out to about 1–4 round cells per high-power field being well within normal. So a report of 2–4, or even an isolated 4–6, is rarely the catastrophe it feels like at 6 a.m. The trouble is that the two scales do not line up neatly. The WHO number is a concentration per millilitre measured with a stain; your lab’s number is a rough visual count per microscope field. That mismatch is why I always interpret the count alongside the rest of the full semen analysis report — the sperm count, the motility, and whether there is any clinical symptom — rather than reacting to one line in isolation. What “normal” actually means on your report Normal does not mean zero. A few white cells are part of a healthy ejaculate — they are housekeeping cells. What we are screening for is a count high enough, and a clinical picture suspicious enough, to suggest real inflammation or infection. A single number, divorced from your symptoms and the rest of the report, tells me very little. Why the lab reports a count per HPF Most Indian semen reports do a manual microscope count and express it as cells “per high-power field.” It is quick and cheap, but it cannot distinguish a neutrophil (a true pus cell) from an immature germ cell — both look like “round cells” down the eyepiece. That single limitation is behind most of the over-diagnosis I unwind in clinic. Round cells include harmless immature germ cells and true peroxidase-positive leukocytes — only a stain tells them apart. Pus cells vs round cells: the mix-up most reports make Here is the most important thing on this page. The cells your lab labels “pus cells” are more correctly called round cells, and round cells are a mixed bag. Some are genuine inflammatory white blood cells — neutrophils, lymphocytes, macrophages — and those are the true pus cells. But a large share are immature germ cells: young sperm-making cells shed normally from the testis. Under an ordinary microscope, the two look almost identical, and morphology alone cannot reliably tell them apart (Johanisson, 2000). So when a report says “8–10 pus cells/HPF,” what it very often means is “8–10 round cells/HPF” — and a good chunk of those may be harmless immature germ cells, not infection at all. Why not every “pus cell” is a true white blood cell To know whether those round cells are really leukocytes, the lab has to do a peroxidase test (also sold as a leuco-screen). Peroxidase-positive cells are true white cells; the rest are germ cells. Without that stain, a high “pus cell” count is an unconfirmed suspicion, not a diagnosis. This is precisely why I rarely treat a number alone — I treat a confirmed, symptomatic infection. What your exact pus-cell count means (2–4 to 20–25 per HPF) Searchers land here having typed their exact count, so let me give you the interpretation I use in clinic. Read this as a guide, not a verdict — the count is always weighed against your symptoms and the rest of the report. Pus cells in semen by count (per HPF) — likely meaning and what I do Count per HPF What it most likely means What I do 0–1 Completely normal Nothing — reassurance 2–4 Normal; well within WHO range Nothing — reassurance 4–6 Upper-normal; usually round cells, not infection Repeat sample after 3–4 days’ abstinence if symptomatic 8–10 Mildly raised; could be round cells or early leukocytospermia Peroxidase test ± semen culture only if symptoms 10–12 Raised; confirm whether truly leukocytes Peroxidase test + semen culture 20–25 Clearly high; true leukocytospermia likely

Does Masturbation Cause Acne?

A young man examining his skin in a mirror, reassured by a calm male doctor in a Chennai clinic

A Chennai andrologist debunks the myth that masturbation causes acne – the testosterone misunderstanding, why both start at puberty, and what really causes acne.

What to Do If You Can’t Ejaculate: Delayed Ejaculation and Its Treatment

A man sitting awake on the edge of his bed at night, wondering why he cannot ejaculate

What to do if you can’t ejaculate, in one sentence: work out which of four problems you have — delayed ejaculation, anejaculation, retrograde ejaculation or failure of emission — because naming the right one decides the treatment. Most are reversible. Indeed the commonest trigger behind all four is a medicine you are already taking, which is why the medicine cupboard is where this article starts rather than the clinic. In practice that means three steps. First, work out which of the four it is. Then review every medicine you take. Finally, test for the handful of causes actually worth finding. Men phrase it a hundred ways in my consulting room. I cannot ejaculate. Nothing comes out. It takes forever. Sex goes on and on and I still can’t finish. Why does it take so long? Having trouble ejaculating, doctor. I have difficulty ejaculating. Having a hard time ejaculating. Trouble cumming, every time. I can’t cum. I can’t climax. Although the wording changes constantly, the problem underneath is always one of the four. I have sat with thousands of men carrying this exact worry in my Chennai clinic. Almost none said it out loud first. They booked for something else, then mentioned it at the door. Let me give you the whole thing. What it is. Why it happens. What I test. What actually works. I recorded the short version of this some years ago, and the questions in the comments have not changed since. Men want to know whether it is permanent, whether it is their fault, and whether anything can be done. The answers are no, almost never, and yes. Here is the long version. Most men carry this alone for years. Under one in eight ever asks for help. Before the detail, here is the whole picture in six lines. If you read nothing else on this page, read these. The short version In a nutshell 1 It is more common than you think In a nationwide survey of 5,331 sexually active men, 5.16% had delayed ejaculation, defined by the distress it caused (Shirai, 2025); an older clinical review put it at 1–4% (Shin, 2014). In my own clinic the proportion runs nearer 4 to 8%, which is a practice observation rather than a published prevalence. 2 Almost nobody asks for help Among men with delayed ejaculation in that survey, 58.18% wanted treatment but only 11.88% ever sought it (Shirai, 2025). Roughly one in eight. 3 Medicines are the most commonly reversible cause, and the first thing to check Antidepressants raised the odds of ejaculatory dysfunction 7.31-fold versus placebo across 19 trials and 3,973 participants (Trinchieri, 2021). 4 The antidepressants are not equal For ejaculation specifically, three stood out against placebo — clomipramine (OR 42.11), the St John’s wort extract WS5570 (OR 28.99), then paroxetine (OR 18.63) (Wang, 2025). 5 An underactive thyroid is a cheap thing to check Delayed ejaculation was far more common in hypothyroid than in hyperthyroid men (Cihan, 2021). 6 “I can finish alone but not with a partner” is a recognised pattern It has a name — situational delayed ejaculation, also called the intravaginal anejaculation phenotype (Gao Q, 2025). It is one of the most treatable versions of this. First, name it. Four problems all get called “I can’t ejaculate” This is where most men, and frankly many doctors, go wrong. Because the four look alike from the outside, treating the wrong one means nothing improves. Name which of the four you have before you treat anything. Four conditions sit behind the complaint, and they are not four parallel boxes — three of them are a hierarchy, and one urine sample moves you down it. A fifth, premature ejaculation, is the opposite problem and is included below only so you can rule it out. Read down the left column and find your own sentence. What you notice What it is called What settles it Sex lasts a very long time and you still cannot finish, or you can only finish alone Delayed ejaculation The pattern itself — you can ejaculate, just not reliably with a partner No semen released at all, ever, alone or with a partner — whether or not the orgasm feeling is there Anejaculation Nothing is released. This is where a dry orgasm starts; the post-orgasm urine splits it into the two rows below You orgasm, nothing comes out, and sperm are found in urine passed afterwards Retrograde ejaculation — the semen went backwards into the bladder Sperm present in the post-orgasm urine You orgasm, nothing comes out, and no sperm are found in that urine Failure of emission (aspermia) — the semen was never delivered into the urethra Sperm absent from the post-orgasm urine You finish far too fast Premature ejaculation The opposite problem entirely Delayed ejaculation Delayed ejaculation — also called inhibited ejaculation, impaired ejaculation or retarded ejaculation — means a persistent delay in, or absence of, orgasm following normal sexual excitement (Shin, 2014). You get there eventually, or only by yourself. Anejaculation and anorgasmia Anejaculation means no ejaculation at all, in any circumstance. Anorgasmia means the absence of orgasm itself despite adequate stimulation, whether alone, with a partner, or both. The two often travel together but they are not the same word: one describes the missing semen, the other the missing climax. A man can have anejaculation and still feel a recognisable orgasm, which is why I ask about them separately. Getting from “nothing comes out” to either retrograde ejaculation or failure of emission is the entire job of the assessment, and one urine sample does it. One term causes real confusion, so let me separate it now. Researchers use “intravaginal anejaculation phenotype” as a label for men who ejaculate perfectly well on their own but never inside the vagina (Gao Q, 2025). Despite the name, those men do not have anejaculation. They have situational delayed ejaculation, and it is one of the most treatable versions of this. Retrograde ejaculation and failure of emission Retrograde ejaculation

Early Morning Sex: Benefits, Myths, and Morning vs Night Sex

An Indian couple awake together in bed in soft early morning light, both relaxed and smiling

Early morning sex is sex in the first hour or two after waking, and for most men it is the easiest sex of the day. An andrologist on the real benefits, morning vs night sex, the myths that do not survive scrutiny, and when morning sex is the wrong advice.

Does Penis Stretching Work? The Truth about ‘Jelqing’

Men’s Health Blogs Does Penis Stretching Work? The Truth about ‘Jelqing’ So, you are going to love this post. Its about ‘the penis stretching exercises’. Does penis stretching work? How effective is ‘jelqing’. Can it make your organ BIG?. Watch the video below Now, the truth is a large number of men have serious problems with the size of their organ. An estimated 45% to 55% of men believe their organ is small (teenie weenieee) in terms of size. Full thanks and salutations to the porn industry, since, men tend to compare their organ sizes with porn stars while watching them do it. Moreover, they a develop a strange complex called as the ‘small penis syndrome’. Furthermore, these men compare the size of their organ with other men, while sharing common spaces in showers and toilets. I mean it really get to the head of these guys. They lose hope, they get depressed and feel their lives are over, fundamentally based on their penis size. They develop whats called as small penis syndrome. Moreover, men with this condition strongly believe and feel that they cannot satisfy their partners in bed. They believe and eventually end up with erectile dysfunction. Consequently, they avoid intimate relationships, and resort to masturbation where the element of judgement from another partner is fundamentally absent. Dr. Shah Dupesh Consultant Andrologist & Sexologist Ready to improve your Reproductive Health? Discuss your concerns in a private setting and get personalized guidance tailored to your needs. Book a Call Book a Call But the TRUTH of the matter is, their organ sizes are actually NORMAL Now, lets discuss a bit about penis size….since this is were most men have a problem. The mean average penis size ranges from about 5 to 5.5 inches when erect. But most men do not know to measure their organ. They end up comparing their size with what they see in the pro, leading to distress, anxiety, depression and a whole host of other issues. So, say you truly have a small size, does penis stretching work? Or does penis lengthening work? We hear all this humbug on these penis lengthening exercise, penis massage blah blah. However, these exercises will not increase the size of your equipment. Sorry to disappoint you. Penis stretching or Jelqing involves rubbing the organ back and forth using lubricants. This pseudoscience claims that repeated penis massage and stretches ends up causing micro tears in the deep tissue of the penis. Moreover, after the minor injuries heal, the scar tissue formed will make the organ feel and appear thicker. But, most people forget to notice that, the penile tissues are not just made of muscles. The penile tissue is made full of ‘neurovasculature’ that is, the organ is filled with blood vessels and nerves. Furthermore, it has 3 erectile tissues inside, the corpora cavernosa and the corpora spongiosum, so, stretching this organ will cause permanent long term damage. Not just, that, their are case reports and studies that suggest that, in men who engage in jelqing or penis stretching organ damage occurs. I have personally seen patients who engage in jelqing & eventually ending up with erectile dysfunction. The last thing you want to do to yourself is self-harm by doing these things. Remember, their are about a 100 factors based on which a women will judge you. And organ size is NOT IMPORTANT. So, please do not worry about your penis size. Visit an andrologist or sexologist near you to get a correct estimate of your organ. Subscribe to our Newsletter This is because a self-estiamtion of your size, by looking at your organ from top-down will make your organ look much smaller than it actually is. In all probability, your organ size is most probably normal. As a bonus point please never use ‘penile extenders’ for stretching your organ. It will cause permanent erection problems, by either incorrect usage or by penis stretching. Penis size can be increased by other methods, like utilizing whats called as a ‘Jess extender’ OR similar devices. But, stretching techniques or stretching devices or other surgical interventions do not work. So, remember 3 things 1. Estimate your size correctly 2. Penis stretching is not required 3. Visit an andrologist for the right treatment with respect to stretching I hope you liked this short post on ‘does penis stretching work’. Pleas drop in your comments below References Veale D, Miles S, Read J, Troglia A, Wylie K, Muir G. Sexual functioning and behavior of men with body dysmorphic disorder concerning penis size compared with men anxious about penis size and with controls: A cohort study. Sexual medicine. 2015 Sep 1;3(3):147-55. Sigalos J, Eleswarapu S, Mills J. HF01-17 PENILE STRETCHING PRACTICES THROUGH TIME AND CULTURE. The Journal of Urology. 2022 May;207(Supplement 5):e217. Related Blogs Recent Blogs Having more doubts? Consult with our doctor Consult with Dr. Shah Leave Your Comment Cancel Reply Logged in as Dr Shah Dupesh. Log out? Δ

Male Fertility Tips to Get Pregnant Fast: The 90-Day Plan

Illustration of an Indian couple at their kitchen table marking a review date on a calendar together while planning to conceive

The male fertility tips that work fastest are a sequence, not a list. Book a semen analysis this week. Move to sex three times a week. Fix tobacco, weight and sleep. Then re-test at 90 days, because that is one full sperm cycle.